What do you think of the debate over the proposed ATV park on Douglas Island?
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This entry was posted on Thursday, August 9th, 2007 at 4:35 am and is filed under City, Politics / Government, Recreation.
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August 9th, 2007 at 5:46 am
Thankfully, there is debate and that it’s not a done-deal yet.
Has anyone been out to the Echo Cove ATV use area lately? Don’t try to walk around in bare feet or bring dogs, because broken glass abounds. Don’t try camping for “peace and quiet”, because you won’t find it there. I’d hate to see this happen to the Fish Creek area.
Juneau is a great place to live, but there obviously are limitations to what is good recreational opportunities for our area. I’d love to learn to surf…should I rally some other surfer-wannabes together to try to promote wrangelling our ocean into a wave pool with tax dollars and CBJ personnel? How about the sun…i miss it sometimes…maybe some of us sun worshippers should lobby to spend tax dollars on some sort of rain/cloud mover? No, we shouldn’t. Obviously absurd, as is putting an ATV park in N. Dougas.
We all have chosen to live here, there is a finite amount of space…Southeast is not like the interior, where ATV trails are abundent. The terrain is different here, space is limited. I am really sick of hearing how “Alaskan” it is to use an ATV…well, it’s also “Alaskan” to use a boat on the ocean…do you think Fairbanks residents lobby their borough for this priveledge? No, I can’t recall hearing an arguement for that one.
To me, this seems like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
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August 9th, 2007 at 6:15 am
I don’t like ATV’s and snow machines used for fun. What I like less, bordering on dislike, is the yahoo’s who drive them. That said, it’s necessary to have a place where they can get out their aggressions by having “fun”. I’d prefer to see it a private venture rather than government sponsored, and I’d prefer to not see it at all in that I think it should be well hidden somewhere out the road. The only government involvement should be regulation on where it is contained to and terms of use; no alcohol, etc.
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August 9th, 2007 at 6:23 am
The square peg round hole problem is not new. It is, however, a clear indication of the lack of cogent skill required to make a reasonable assessment of a situation.
Repeatedly trying to pound a square peg into a round hole shows a clear sign of either a complete mental breakdown or a simple lack of common sense. Either way, it speaks volumes about your single-mindedness.
Read More
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August 9th, 2007 at 6:30 am
I don’t own or ride…..
But I think it is a great idea to have a designated ATV park, maybe with hours of operation. I could say a lot on the comments above, but that would do nothing but try and open a closed mind, and that is impossible. I believe there is a way to make a park that will make residents happy and ATV users happy.
The one comment I have to make is you can not blame ATV users on the trash or glass at Echo. How maybe times have you been camping out there this year? Garbage can not be blamed on ATV users alone. Many people use Echo cove that are not riders that I have personally seen abuse the land. Instead of blaming, we as residents of Juneau need to turn the finger around and look at what we can be doing to educate people or our own children about the damages trash and glass on the ground make.
Peace and quite can be found still in juneau…in many places.
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August 9th, 2007 at 6:46 am
I was on the Oregon coast last month. ATV use is really popular there with sand dunes and beaches and lots of open space. I stopped at a state park to take a walk. Over a half mile away was an ATV park, behind a timbered ridge. The noise from the ATVs was very clear, and very annoying. It basically destroyed the tranquility of that nice little park.
Putting an ATV park 100 yards from a residential area? Allowing it to operate until midnight? What brainiac came up with that idea? Where do our elected officials stand on this plan? Are any of them behind it?
What’s wrong with Eaglecrest during the summer? There’s parking, cleared terrain, and it’s far from any residences. Just open some of the lower slopes.
If the city does open a designated area for ATVs, how about then shutting down Echo Cove? That’s a nice area the community would like back.
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August 9th, 2007 at 7:11 am
Putting an ATV park 100 yards from a residential area? Allowing it to operate until midnight? What brainiac came up with that idea?
Gotta agree with you there, Bob. That’s just silly. I wouldn’t want to live there. *cough* Barona Oaks *cough* SDCE *cough*
But Kristine nailed it. There’s plenty of room for both. Trying to close ATVers out will only start a fight. A big fight. And with 16,000,000 ATVers already starting to get annoyed at the amount of BS we’re already getting, (some deserved, most not), you’ll be in for a long day that will have lots and lots of corporate support and an ever-grown community of responsible riders. So eat a big breakfast, bring a sack lunch, and tell all your friends, cuz you’re going to be there a while trying to keep us out. (Don’t forget, I’m a hiker/nature lover, too, only I ride ATVs as well…
)
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August 9th, 2007 at 7:22 am
The City of Juneau along with the Forest Service, other agencies and special interest groups have systematically eliminated virtually all areas for use by motorized vehicles. This has got to stop! The members of the community and our elected officials need to recognize that people who ride motorized vehicles are citizens and taxpayers of this community and that they should be provided the opportunity to enjoy their chosen recreational activity just as much as non-motorized users. Motorized vehicle users represent a valid user group which should be provided equal representation by our elected officials and should be accommodated equally to other user groups. Further restrictions, outright bans, and other discriminations against the users of motorized equipment must not be allowed and cannot be tolerated. It is time to reverse the trend and develop an area for use by motorized recreational vehicles.
Having been born and raised in Juneau (a 40+year resident) I have watched the steady displacement of motorized vehicles from all areas around Juneau:
“¢ Before the bike paths were constructed you could ride down the ditchlines of Mendenhall Loop Road”¦ not anymore
“¢ The rock dump ““ privately owned and eventually displaced by commercial development
“¢ The snowmobile track on Montana Creek Road ““ gone. Now the Juneau Community Garden
“¢ The Dredge Lake Area ““ Closed to ORV’s by the Forest Service
“¢ Echo Cove ? ““ the handwriting is on the wall”¦ closure coming soon??
Each time one of these areas has been closed the promise has been the same: We’ll work on finding a replacement area. Years and years go by and still no area in Juneau dedicated to the use of motorized vehicles. Where the area is located is not as important as finally coming through with a replacement area. It’s time to honor past promises and establish an area for use by Juneau’s population of motorized vehicle users.
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August 9th, 2007 at 7:28 am
Kristine, when you say “that would do nothing but try and open a closed mind, and that is impossible,” I have to say I resent the implication that my decision-making ability is so prejudiced and biased that my mind is shut to new information. If I have reservations about ORV activity – and I have many – they’re based 100% upon actual nasty experiences, right here in Juneau, and research I’ve done trying to resolve just why ORV use should polarize people so.
For example, two years ago I actually witnessed, with my own eyes, two ATV-riding men in their mid-twenties toss half a 12-pack of Heineken empties [green glass bottles] along the beach as they rode along, then throw the remainder onto the gravel and drive their big-lugged-tire ATVs over the bottles to smash them. This was 40 feet from a CBJ trash can, in front of which a large 3′x3′ sign had been placed with day-glo orange letters saying “TRASH CAN.” I have never, in years of having outdoor fun in Juneau, observed any other type of recreationist to do someting like this. Tossing bottles into pallet fires, sure. But strewing bottles across a beach and deliberately driving over them to smash them, with a trash can in clear sight? No. So when anyone claims that ORV use in Juneau is not directly linked to trash and litter of the worst sort – broken glass – and that I’m meraly being unfairly biased in thinking so, I have to counter that perhaps those with closed minds are actually the ones in denial about the litter issue…and the noise issue…and the landscape destruction issue…and the child safety issue…
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August 9th, 2007 at 8:18 am
come on boys and girls no fighting on the play ground, lets go back to grade school and learn how to get along with each other.
My kids (9,6, & 4) who ride atvs and pick up their trash are more open to shareing than most of this community, they seem to understand at a young age that everyone should be able to have resonsible fun and be nice to everyone.
I have lived in Juneau for 31 years and grew up towards the end of North Douglas, and there is a alot of room for everyone. lets aleast give us resonsible, family riders a chance to show that it can work. This town is losing it’s young people, let’s try and keep them here instead of closing or not allowing anything they may be interested in.
to all those opposed, where would you have atvs, and no outlawing them is not a option. be part of the solution not part of the problem. whats you counter-offer? if you haven’t noticed there is a growing demand for the sport / hobby / family activity.
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August 9th, 2007 at 8:54 am
While camping (and riding) at Echo Cove two summers ago I remarked to a friend that if riders and campers didn’t start policing themselves that someone would.. Look at Eagle Beach..used to be free but the pallets, bottles, etc. started piling up and it had to be cleaned up. Now it gets cleaned by State Parks and we pay for that service. We routinely raked up glass and nails but besides bitching I guess we didn’t do much to encourage our fellow users to respect the privlege we enjoy. Again…we get what we ask for and deserve.
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August 9th, 2007 at 9:02 am
I’m sure one can look around at all recreational activities and see the people who are responsible and those who aren’t. It is very unfair to generalize a whole group of users based on a few. I’m sure everyone has seen some recreational user litter or be destructive in some way, I know I’ve seen hikers and fishermen who are. Also look around at the various recreational cabins around SE. So this is less a who is a more responsible user group and more of an issue on where or if ATV use should be allowed. Like Pat said ” ATV users are citizens and taxpayers too”. All citizens have a right to participate in hobbies of there choice, it is the role of our community groups to help build a community that will sustain a diverse group of people by providing them the opportunities they seek (professional and recreational). Everyone needs to quit fighting each other and work together, maybe the proposed land isn’t the best place but hey, put your head together and find a new place that will satisfy land owners and ATV users.
I grew up in a community that provided an area for ATV use, we also had lots of logging roads a boat ride away. The interesting thing was, the designated ATV use area was very well maintained and people were respectful and responsible. It was because responsible people felt it was there duty to keep things clean and safe, this rubbed off on other users. On logging roads were very different, however, when someone who was responsible was around things changed. People inherently don’t want to disappoint, but we will only do what we have to or what is expected.
By providing a safe legal place for ATV use I’m sure you will see things turn out a bit different than Echo Cove, there is no ownership out there. I’m sure the mentality is use it while you can and nobody feels like it is theres to take care of. So quite fighting and work together there is a place for everyone. And remember they aren’t asking to share hiking trails or beaches, they just want a place to enjoy them selves too.
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August 9th, 2007 at 9:02 am
Atv riders are open to sharing, unfortunately it’s usually their noise and garbage, if experience teaches us anything. I don’t consider riding atvs to be a ‘sport’ – riding around in circles tearing up the ground and making as much noise as possible. If there are so many people that yearn to do this ‘sport’, they should buy a quarry in some remote area and build it themselves – public land should not be devoted to this. Here’s a counter offer – lets let them ride for a summer on the airport wetlands trail, they’d be riding on it now if it weren’t prohibited. Let’s see how that works. I guarantee you that in a few weeks all the hikers, runners and dog walkers would be run off, there would be wheel ruts everywhere, all the flowers would be mashed, and probably not a duck or goose in sight. Thats what this ‘sport’ does. If these people were responsible users of public land they would be practicing a sport that doesn’t destroy it and ruin it for everyone else…
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August 9th, 2007 at 9:28 am
A friend suggested that I comment here, as I was quoted in the paper. I did hesitate after reading some of the comments only because of the triteness that bordered on plain rudeness.
Yes, I truly did grow up in North Douglas and live in Douglas now. I have always held a season pass for Eaglecrest. I hike once a week, and hiked East Glacier on Tuesday. I use the Eaglecrest road for mountain biking and jogging purposes (it is an excellent workout!) My father owned a snow machine when I was growing up and my Mother had a dirt bike (before I was born) and my family is avid cross country and downhill skiers, hikers, and bicycle users. Currently, I own a three-wheeler and a couple of snow machines, which I enjoy riding after a good hike or winter Eaglecrest session.
I know that ATV users can be respectful and safe. Accidents do happen, that is why car accidents rate as one of the highest fatality incidents in the United States.
I volunteer in our community. One of the organizations that I volunteer with is the Big Brothers, Big Sisters program in Juneau, Alaska. I have been matched with my little since she was in second grade. Today, she is in eighth grade. We partake in many activities: capture the flag in Treadwell, tubing, hiking, swimming, and going to the movies, ect. I was excited to see that there would be a youth trail in the proposed OHV park plan. I planned on taking my little there, wearing a helmet of course. I know that Juneau needs more options for young adults and teens, positive activities are antidrugs for this demographic.
The OHV park plan proposal is a very small percentage of the fish creek area, I know that the city is conscientious and will be equitable to all when the final decision is made.
A lot of people have been making generalizations in regards to noise. I live on the waterfront of Gastineau Channel. Last night I don’t recall hearing the crew ships leaving or coming into the harbor, along with the commercial and sport boats that utilize the channel. Isn’t it a known fact that sound carries better over water?
Finally, I have a quote from Audioslave:
“For the last American heroes for whom speed means freedom of the soul. The question is not when you’re going to stop but who’s going to stop them.”
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August 9th, 2007 at 9:37 am
OK ATV’ers, you’ve been making loud demands for equality. Fine. How about you guys acknowledging the validity of some of your opponents concerns and proposing some solutions to them instead of just repeating over & over that you deserve your chance to play like everyone else, with no regard to their concerns? That attitude is a large part of why you’ve lost other areas. You claim to be responsible members of the community, so step up to the plate and demonstrate it.
Noise – it is undeniable that your sport creates a lot of objectionable noise. So don’t bother trying to argue it – find a solution. Trying to force your sport into a residential area is simply irresponsible and disrespectful of those living there. Might I suggest identifying a location where the noise impacts will be minimized? How about requiring the each ATV have 4-stroke engines and functional mufflers?
Compliance – If you get a new City-sanctioned area, how are you going to police it? Some suggestions: charge a usage fee that pays for real enforcement efforts; require a training course that includes a thorough review of the rules; require that each ATV have large, clearly identifiable identification numbers so violators can be identified. Adopt no-bullshit penalties that include impoundment of the toy if you can’t follow the rules. You are probably a good citizen, but you know that there are bad actors in your group who are spoiling it for all of you.
Safety – Kids get hurt on ATV’s, that too is undeniable. So require safety training, helmets, adult supervision, and zero tolerance for alcohol.
Start recognizing the impacts that you’re having on others and come up with real, practical solutions and then some of us will be more supportive of your requests. But so far all I envision is another Echo Cove, and that simply is unacceptable.
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August 9th, 2007 at 10:09 am
Wow, Bob. You really stuck your foot in it this time… I don’t recall reading anywhere here where we said we wanted all these freedoms without the responsibility of our fellow hikers and other misc tree hugging liberal types.
For your information, and you desperately need it, there are MANY organizations founded by and run by ATVers and other OHVers that do exactly what you say. We work hard to make this a safe, respectable sport. People like you that ignore everything positive we’ve done, and just Blather on about how we DONT do anything good, are not the sharpest tool in the shed. But you are, indeed, a tool.
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August 9th, 2007 at 10:16 am
Step by step rebuttal to Bob’s irrational and very incorrect rant…
Noise: Like lots of other activities, most ATVs fall well under the db limits in most areas. A few don’t, but then I’m sure a few people don’t abide by those rules in cars, boats, with their stereos etc etc.
Compliance: We already police ourselves quite a bit. I’ve threatened people with legal action for being disrespectful to other people’s private property. Read about it on my blog. But also, they already collect fees. Lots of them. Usually more than it takes to both maintain and police the riding area where the fees are collected. But you go ahead and keep talking without knowing facts.
Safety: If you cared to really find out, you’d see that ATV accidents per hour of use is DECLINING. There are MANY OHV groups that strongly push training, safety gear etc etc etc, and I’m one of the strongest. Again, go read my blog.
Lastly, We, of all people, DO recognize the impact we have. And we do a lot about it. Just because you refuse to see it and acknowledge it does not mean it isn’t going on.
So get down off your high (and I mean that literally AND figuratively), and look at FACTS instead of TALKING POINTS.
Mkthks.
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August 9th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Here, Bob. This is how I react to people that make you mad, too…
Kid riding on neighbor’s property just to be a *ick
is it too much to ask that these kids put a pipe on their quads and show a little respect?
riding recklessly, especially around kids, it needs to stop
Oh, and uh… Tread Lightly, eh?
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August 9th, 2007 at 10:34 am
Matt, your response sounds like the same pattern of denial…we DON’T make (much) noise, we DO police ourselves (like Echo Cove?), accidents are going down and on and on.
If you really recognized the impact you have you would have withdrawn your proposal to put an ATV park 100 yards from a residential area immediately.
I know that there are plenty of ATV groups out there that advocate responsible ridership, and lots of well-managed ATV areas. That’s great. I’m asking about Juneau specifically, and at your proposed playground even more specifically. So what is your management plan? Denial? So far it sounds that way.
You can resort to petty personal attacks, or you can prove that you hear other voices. The choice is yours.
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August 9th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Now here’s a link with actual useful information – you know, _facts_ – instead of Matt’s hysterical hissy fits.
http://www.atvsafetynet.org/
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August 9th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Gee, Bob. How do you do it? Reading and Comprehension are key to a fun, civil and intelligent e-conversation. You keep trying to put words in my mouth, so to speak.
I did not say we don’t make much noise, I said we were within limits, in most places.
We police ourselves. When my group sees idiots, we tell them about it. We don’t try to get them banned.
Accidents are going up, because ATV use is going up. But for every 1,000 ATV riders there are less injuries. 784 bicyclists died on US roads in 2005. If you average it out, that’s over 15 deaths per state per year, only on bicycles.
Why are bicycles not outlawed? Too many kids are getting killed on bikes! Ban Them! And what about pedestrians? over 120 died in So Carolina in 2006 alone!
OVER 120 PEOPLE DIED WALKING IN ONE STATE IN ONE YEAR!!
BAN THEM!!
I won’t talk about cars.
Oh. My. God.
See where I’m going, Bob?
Oh, and Chris… From the link you provided:
Although the U.S. ATV industry asserts that voluntary safety standards have worked and should be made mandatory for all ATV makers, the following findings – for the first time – directly refute that claim. The preliminary findings of a study conducted by Dr. Jim Helmkamp, PhD, MS clearly show that the dangers of ATVs are increasing significantly while the risks of bike riding are declining.
Bicycle injuries are going down, because of mandatory helmet laws for kids. I can appreciate that. Especially for kids on ATVs. I’m not a big fan of big government, but that makes sense. Just like not riding on pavement, not riding passengers and not riding an ATV bigger than you can safely handle.
All those factors combined make up for 90 to 95% of ALL ATV ACCIDENTS.
Fix those problems, you’ve got an absolutely safer sport than we have now without banning them all together.
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August 9th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Thanks for the link Chris but there is a small problem after reading through the information provided. None of these studies take into account the increase in the number of OHV users. While overall, the total numbers of injuries / deaths are higher, the percentages are down. This is due to responsible OHV users, clubs and organizations that have the primary goal of making sure this is a safe and enjoyable activity.
Now here’s a link with actual useful information – you know facts that actually take ALL things into account.
http://www.atvsafety.org/SVIAPressReleases/CPSC012605.pdf
And Ruprecht, while you attempt to defend yourself when being accused of being “prejudiced and biased” you have made it clear, from previous posts on this site as well as your comments at last nights CDD “Neighborhood” meeting, that you are “prejudiced and biased”. I’m not sure why you chose to attack people who are overweight but it seems like there is some prejudice there, or is it just Overweight people who use OHV’s? As far as your story about the ATV’s users who “…throw the remainder (bottles) onto the gravel and drive their big-lugged-tire ATVs over the bottles to smash them”, I think I smell something…
People, before you point fingers or tell us what we should or shouldn’t do, please take the time to read the Permit application and the Management plan that was submitted to the CDD. This plan outlines the plan for operation and management and should address the majority of your concerns. The North Douglas property owners have been given copies or I would be happy to email a copy. The first public meeting held was to allow “North Douglas” residents the opportunity to voice their questions and concerns. Sadly, none of the opposition showed up, conveniently out of town”¦ all of them? Because of the fact that we were shown no opposition to the permit application “As written” no changes were made. Now that the application has been filed there seems to be a lot of concern. This project has been very “Public” since the initial attempt back in 2001 and we have been nothing but open and willing to work with the public to address issues. Is this delay in opposing the project just a ploy to delay this project? Well, I’m sorry to say that it has worked in your favor this time, as CDD is definitely backpedaling now. Next time you may not be so lucky.
Anyone with questions or comments please feel free to contact me directly and I will do what I can to address them. I will only respond to civil and valid question so if you want to tell me to “Find another hobby” or call me a “Redneck”, save those comments for these web blogs where you can hide behind a pseudonym so you don’t have to be accountable for them.
James Tipps
Rough Riders AK, Inc. ““ President
http://www.roughridersak.org
james@roughridersak.org
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August 9th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
One thing that people who are against the ATV park are complianing about is that you can’t walk around and camp where ATV riders are. That is exactly why we are trying to get a place designated only for ATV use! Is there an area just for that now? NO – not one single place!!! How many areas are there in Juneau for hiking and camping? MANY!!! As for the complaints about irresponsible riders – irresponsibility can be found in every area of life. It doesn’t make sense to shut down ATV use entirely for a few rude riders. I am not a member of the Rough Riders, but I have been to their meetings and I am very impressed with their focus on responsibility and safety. I believe the R.R.s will do their best to keep the ATV park as nice and safe as any group can. Ultimately, however, the responsibility and safety boils down to each individual rider. I, for one, make a pledge to be responsible. I will also teach my three sons (who are dying for a place to ride) to be safe and responsible. Now, give me a place to ride so I can prove it!
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August 9th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Matt,
You still haven’t presented a plan for the area in Juneau. Obviously you don’t have one. Let’s focus on your points then:
Noise within limits – precisely WHICH limits are you talking about? Does Juneau of the state have noise limits for ATV’s? Educate me. You pointed out above that you agreed that the Fish Creek site didn’t make sense – if the noise is “within limits”, then why not?
Law obedience – so a guy with a blog “threatens” other naughty riders with calling the cops. Is that your answer to policing the area? Probably not a good enough solution for the surrounding neighbors.
Fees – Are there fees collected in Juneau to pay for policing and education and so forth? Who collects them? Who does the policing? Under what authority? First I’ve heard of it. Why isn’t it happening at Echo Cove? Please, educate me. Don’t tell me about what’s happening somewhere else – tell me about here. Juneau.
Safety – I argue for helmets and adult supervision for kids and you call me “incorrect” and “irrational”? Folks like lager above sound very responsible and will certainly do their best to give guidance to their kids. But not all parents are like lager – some will dump off their kids with an ATV and head to Walmart – we all know that. What’s your plan to deal with that in Juneau?
Don’t tell me about your blog. Tell me what your plan is.
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August 9th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
James,
Would you please post your management plan to your website? I think many people would like to review it. Taking in public comments and adapting your plan as a response would be a great way to gain community support.
I tried to find any info on your plan at the City’s website and was unsuccessful.
Thanks.
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August 9th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Noise within limits – Federal regulations state that OHV’s on Forest Service Land must be below 99dB. Anchorage ordinance states 76dB at property line after 10 PM
Law obedience – We have no “Legal” authority. We do our best to talk to all users to make sure they know the rules but we will need help from the authorities. As a club we can require identification plates or stickers, restrict entrance to paying club members only and provide landowner liability insurance for private landowners who allow our club (our club ONLY though)
Fees – Rough Riders AK, Inc. is a non profit corporation who will use donations, membership dues and grants to provide safety and responsible rider education classes… when we can get a place to hold them. Without private land we cannot charge a use fee for public land, CBJ would have to implement this.
Safety – The plan for the park was to provide a specific “Youth Training Area” as well as a helmet requirement. The permit application covers all of this people!
This plan is available to the public. Call CDD or email james@roughridersak.org to get a copy.
James Tipps
Rough Riders AK, Inc. – President
http://www.roughridersak.org
james@roughridersak.org
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August 9th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
I support a site for ATV use. A large one. I have been waiting for a legal sight to ride in this town for 35 years. The fact we do not have one yet is not fair.
I believe the way to take ATV pressure off the majority of the Borough is to specify a large parcel for the ATV users.
My son and I know how to hike. I would like him to learn to ride his dirt bike responsibly also. Lynn
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August 9th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
If people want to tear up their land for thrills, let them do it – in their own back yards. There is no constitutional right for anyone to destroy public lands for their own personal pleasure. Whether it be on snowmachines or ATVs.
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August 10th, 2007 at 12:28 am
most all the hiking trails made were made for everyone’s personal pleasure wern’t they. look at all the disruption of wildlife mans invasion has caused. i guess were going to have to ban all outdoor activities and stay indoors so everything is preserved.
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August 10th, 2007 at 1:41 am
i feel sorry for the people in douglas county who oppose the ATV park in their backyard.
i also feel sorry for the “youths” who will be breaking bones and possibly worse at the proposed
park.
with senator stevens from alaska pushing ATV industry backed federal legislation in washington DC (ATV standards and compliance ACT of 2007) i’d say residents don’t stand a chance of getting what they want, a quiet, safe community. i’d guess that ATV park is a done deal.
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August 10th, 2007 at 4:16 am
This is more of a public service message, but because the discussion is about ATVs I’m mentioning it.
Montana Creek is designated as an anadromous fish stream by our Dept of Natural Resources. Alaska Statutes expressly forbid driving any sort of motorized vehicle through these streams, even their little bitty headwater tributaries. Salmonid fry can be found clear to the upper gravel beds of Montana Creek.
So whoever’s leaving those ATV tracks through the creek, it’s time to stop, you’re breaking the law.
James, maybe you could mention this at one of the Rough Riders meetings so people don’t get into trouble simply because they’re ignorant of the regs? Or maybe sponsor a sign alerting riders to keep out of the creek, that there is no place where crossing it is permitted?
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August 10th, 2007 at 4:34 am
I have a suggestion. How about an Atv part on the Golbelt clearcut just south of Echo Cove. It is away from the beach and is not near any houses, and it is not being used for anything. User fees could go to Goldbelt. What you think about that…..
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August 10th, 2007 at 4:39 am
Carolyn,
i also feel sorry for the “youths” who will be breaking bones and possibly worse at the proposed
park.
Do you feel sorry for the “youths” who will be breaking bones and possibly worse while walking, riding bikes, playing football or riding in a car?
Yeah, I thought so.
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August 10th, 2007 at 7:31 am
I was born in juneau in 1978. I learned to ride a motorcycle when I was 8 or so. It was a honda 50 trail bike, you know one of the little red things. I had a ball on that thing. Way back when my uncle used to race motor cross out thane, by where the big fuel tanks are, Alaska litho, ect, there was a real track, my dad Dwan helped build it and mantain it. I don’t think he ever charged a dime. Out dredge lake was another place to ride. I also remember the demo derbies on the 4th of july at the dump, going with everyone to watch the cars pile into each other. When the track finally went away, and dredge lake was closed to bikes, my dad would take me over to the shop he had by the end of the airport and I would ride back there. As I got older my enterest in motorsports of variouse kinds grew, I like most of my friends, continued doing what we had always done and just tried not to get caught. Sometimes we did. Like the gokart incident with officer Jennings. God bless that guy. Or the time with Tim and the sammy by Thunder mountain. I still laugh about that. I ended up leaving Juneau in 2001 for Oregon. I love it here. When I first showed up I thought it was amazing that the land of the spotted owl, progressive environmental policy, and hippies was so open to motorsports. And how well those designated areas were used by the people who enjoyed them. I am now a partner in a motorsports business, something I was unable to pursue in Juneau. Every now and then a budy asks if I’ll ever move back, and aside from the rain, one of my biggest hangups is knowing I’d be moving back to a place as oppresive to my hobby as Juneau.
I have a lot of fond memeories of Juneau, I garantee you that I would have more if a legal place to excersice my hobby of choice was available.
I have read all of the counter points to the atv site on Douglas. And although I really want this to be a possibilty I appreciate and understand a number of them. As for the cost, I know an awfull lot of money is spent every year on trails, boat ramps, trail head parking and the like. So, out and out fairness dictates an equal oppurtunity to that money. For eveyone. Not just the hikers. Those ohv guys pay taxes too. They are only aking for respected representation for there taxes paid. Oregons fix is a $40 a year ohv permit. This is more than resonable. Besides, just set aside a spot and call it legal to ride there and I garantee you a tack will appear. The ramps at the skate park are constantly changing as VOLUTEERS work with each other to keep it chalenging and exciting. I do not think finding volunteers for an atv park would ever be an issue. In my experience most people who enjoy this sort of sport are rather usefull when it comes time to build something. As I was growing up I got hurt alot, I found out alot about myself whenever this happened. Things like physical limits, that I’m not made of glass, that I can be tougher than I thought I could be. Alot of these oputunities came came from motorsorts, but most did not. Kids get banged up. Its what kids do when there not looking for a place to get banged up. Every year some hiker takes a fall, gets lost and freezes, gets attaked by a bear, accidently shot, his kayak drowns him, he falls off a fishing boat, you name it. The majority of the hobbies in Alaska can and will kill you if you are not carefull. ATV use is no different. As for location, I really feel for the people like the lady who lives rather close to the proposed site. For her this is not like moveing next to the airport and then bitching about the noise the planes make. This is like the airport moving next to you. So while I really am behind the atv park, its important to keep an open mind. Maybe that location is not the best, but the IDEA of a park and the NEED for one is apparent. I do not want my hobbie to be a burden on enyone else. I only ask that the same respect be returned. There is a common ground, Oregon has found it, I believe you can too. Good luck
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August 10th, 2007 at 8:32 am
A major point of the lead article in that link I posted was that kids under 16 are over seven times more likely to be killed in an ATV accident than in a bicycle accident.
Or, stated in another way, although bicycle use by kids outnumbers ATV use by 7 to one, more kids die in ATV accidents. Even if the ratio of deaths and injuries for kids under 16 to numbers of machines in use may be slowly declining, as claimed in that link that James provided to the SVIA industry group [and speaking of industry groups, I think the tobacco industry has given us all a lesson about swallowing whatever they say hook, line, and sinker.], ATV use is nonetheless still seven times riskier.
Those aren’t good odds, and parents should be aware of the risk.
http://www.atvsafetynet.org/
Concerned Parents for ATV Safety is a network of parents dedicated to reducing injuries and death among children driving powerful All Terrain Vehicles (ATVs). We offer support to victim’s families and provide families with information and resources to make informed decisions about their children and ATVs. Through public education we work to raise awareness of the need for adequate, common sense safety standards that keep children under 16 off ATVs, and for enforcement of ATV laws.
Although the U.S. ATV industry asserts that voluntary safety standards have worked and should be made mandatory for all ATV makers, the following findings – for the first time – directly refute that claim. The preliminary findings of a study conducted by Dr. Jim Helmkamp, PhD, MS clearly show that the dangers of ATVs are increasing significantly while the risks of bike riding are declining.
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August 10th, 2007 at 9:40 am
An ATV park should not be built near any existing residential area, North Douglas or otherwise. If community resources are being used to increase recreational opportunities, consideration must be given to the problem of overweight and obesity among Alaskans. 66% of adults are overweight or obese and nearly 20% of children are overweight. More ball fields, parks, bike paths, skating rinks, swimming pools and safe sidewalks and walking trails will benefit the health and well-being of the entire population.
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August 10th, 2007 at 10:40 am
A major point of the lead article in that link I posted was that kids under 16 are over seven times more likely to be killed in an ATV accident than in a bicycle accident
Right, I got that already.
But like I said, which you promptly and completely ignored…
Bicycle injuries are going down, because of mandatory helmet laws for kids. I can appreciate that. Especially for kids on ATVs. I’m not a big fan of big government, but that makes sense. Just like not riding on pavement, not riding passengers and not riding an ATV bigger than you can safely handle.
All those factors combined make up for 90 to 95% of ALL ATV ACCIDENTS.
And like I said, fix those issues and you’ve got a very safe activity.
Just ask Dr Daniel Garros, Pediatric Emergency Physician at Stollery Children’s Hospital and the Assistant Clinical Professor of Emergency Medicine at the University of Alberta how many accidents with injuries there would be if kids wore helmets and followed other common sense suggestions (not law everywhere yet) like staying off pavement, riding the right sized ATV, taking training courses etc. He’s the one that came up with the statistics.
Just because he failed to link the facts for us all doesn’t mean someone else didn’t
And when you talk about “protecting our kids”, you mean by banning them from ATVs. Period. Like I said, you should concentrate on something that won’t thoroughly enrage 16,000,000 people. Who, by the way, have lots of money and corporate backing.
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August 10th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Consumer Product Safety Commission Report Shows Decline in ATV Injury Rate for Second Consecutive Year
ATV Industry Continues to Support State Legislation, Rider Training/Education, and Parental Supervision as Keys to Further Improving ATV Safety
Irvine, Calif., January 26, 2005 — A report released today by the Consumer Product Safety Commission
(CPSC 2003 Annual Report of ATV Deaths and Injuries) shows that while the number of four wheel allterrain
vehicles (ATVs) in use increased by 700,000 units between 2002 and 2003, the estimated injuries
per 10,000 ATVs declined for the second year in a row. The report indicates that the ATV injury rate has
declined 6.2% from 2001 to 2003.
At the same time, the popularity of ATVs continues to increase. The number of ATVs in use grew 13% in
2003 from 2002. Since 1998, the number of ATVs in use has doubled.
Although the overall number of injuries has increased, when the rising popularity of ATVs is taken into
account, there has been no appreciable upward trend in injury risk during the six year time period since
CPSC’s new injury sample and methodology has been in place. As noted, the injury risk has in fact
declined from 2001 to 2003.
Further, the report shows that the proportion of total ATV injuries sustained by riders under 16 has fallen
from 37% in 1998 to 31% in 2003. The report also indicates that the risk of fatality per 10,000 ATVs has
declined 21% from 1999 to 2002.
“The CPSC report confirms that the industry’s commitment to rider education, parental supervision, and
state legislation is working to bring down injury and fatality rates,” said Tim Buche, president of the
Specialty Vehicle Institute of America (SVIA). “Millions of Americans operate ATVs safely and
responsibly every day. It’s unfortunate that more than 92% of ATV-related fatalities involve one or more
behaviors that the industry strongly and visibly warns against in its rider education programs, in all its
literature, and on the vehicle itself. The industry’s top priority is to continue to work with the CPSC, user
groups, retail dealerships, and all others interested in promoting ATV safety to further reduce the number
of accidents resulting from misuse of the product.”
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August 10th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Fish Creek Quarry OHV Park Plan
Submitted By
Rough Riders AK, Inc
and
Division of Lands and Resources City and Borough of Juneau
Rough Riders AK, Inc. (RRAK) proposes improvements for off-road vehicle (ORV) use in the vicinity of the Lower Fish Creek Rock Quarry. The quarry is approximately half a mile from the bottom of Eaglecrest road. With minimal improvements this area could provide a much needed ORV recreational area. As proposed on the attached site plan, additional parking would be provided, ORV access and site circulation would be improved, the quarry pit would be closed and graded for additional riding area, existing logging roads would be brushed, and several new trails would be developed.
Parking / Access
Parking will be located at least 100′ back from Fish Creek Road along the rock quarry access road. A minimum of 10 truck/trailer spaces will be provided, as well as 10 vehicle parking spaces. This is anticipated to match the parking demand as 30-40 riders can be accommodated in the proposed riding area, and riders typically share trailer use in small riding groups. Additional parking may be constructed in the future, by enlarging the proposed parking pad away from Fish Creek Road, or connecting to parking along Fish Creek Road. The quarry access gate will be moved, and the road widened, to accommodate two lanes of traffic. Widening could be accomplished by clearing the existing alders, wading out existing piles of debris and adding some fill material. Moving the gate and barricade boulders will be completed by the City and Borough of Juneau (CBJ) to ensure that placement meets with their approval. The boulders and gate will be placed so that when the gate is closed ORV’s will be forced to enter the area through the designated ORV entrance located in the main parking area. Maintaining the gate is important to allow access for clean up vehicles and equipment to clear trails and grade the rock quarry.
Rock Quarry
The quarry currently has some trash in and around it. Members of RRAK will pick up this trash and CBJ will pay to remove it from the site. RRAK will coordinate with CBJ to grade the quarry area creating a track with banked curves jumps and other appropriate improvements. The quarry area will serve as the center of the riding area with several trails going into the clear-cut area. When trails are created around the quarry where steep inclines exist, rock barriers will be placed along the edge of the backs to increase safety before it is open for riding.
Trails
RRAK proposes the development of a loop trail System leading from the parking lot and quarry into the clear-cut (see attached site plan). Some of this trail will follow old logging roads and the remaining will need to be cleared by RRAK. This trail will be entirely in the clear-cut and rock quarry with no trails in the old growth forest. The trails will be brushed and cleared of stumps logs and other debris to make a safe trail. RRAK will work with the NOHVCC and Tread Lightly when aligning new trails to ensure minimal impacts to the natural resources, while developing safe, easy to use trails. Standard trail designs and cross sections are provided with this application.
Operation and Management
Rough Riders AK, inc. will provide volunteers to help CBJ facilitate management of this area. The Fish Creek OHV Park will be open to OHV use year round with the trail system open to OHV use between 8:00 am and 12:00 am (midnight). For safety reasons, trails will be restricted to motorized use only. A sound monitoring program will be implemented by RRAK, through assistance from the NOHVCC, to ensure sound levels are within acceptable limits. Sound testing at CBJ property lines will be done before and after park opening.
The main parking area will be open for trail access only and no fires or alcohol are allowed at any time in the riding or parking areas. A group picnic area may be established with a designated fire pit. There will be speed limits in specified areas, a designated youth only area based on OHV engine size, and helmets will be required for all riders. Signage and enforcement of OHV area regulations will be done by RRAK. Blocking of “problem” areas will be coordinated with CBJ, and trail cameras, to be provided by RRAK, will be used to aid enforcement if necessary.
The area will be covered by the CBJ general liability insurance. Any areas deemed dangerous by CBJ or RRAK will be blocked using material from site, and properly marked as “off limits”.
Trail layout and trail maintenance will be provided by RRAK through club funds, donations and grant monies. Periodic trail assessments will be done by RRAK and CBJ staff. RRAK will use GPS mapped trail assessment sheets to pinpoint problem areas.
Special events and activities will be limited to 6 events per year and will require authorization from CBJ. All authorized events will be non-competitive in nature and may include, but are not limited to, poker runs, match trials, family fun days. The site will also be used for proper OHV riding education, sustainable trail education and OHV safety training classes.
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August 10th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
James, thanks. You guys have obviously put a good deal of thought into this proposal. That’s encouraging.
I’m still not convinced that the Fish Creek site is appropriate due to the impacts on nearby residents, but your plan could obviously be adapted to another more suitable location.
What’s NOHVCC?
Travis, thanks for the thoughtful post. Appreciate the courteous dialogue. Must admit that some of your points have made me think about my assumptions.
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August 11th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Bob, NOHVCC is the National Off Highway Vehicle Conservation Coalition, a clearing house for ORV-related information.
Take a look:
http://www.nohvcc.org/contacts/repdescrip.asp
If you click on the State Contacts tab, you’ll discover that James has volunteered to be an “Associate Representative” for Alaska [the main state rep lives in Anchorage].
And here’s the position description:
PURPOSE OF THE POSITION: Act as a proactive liaison between National Off Highway Vehicle Conservation Council (NOHVCC) and the OHV community in their state; assist OHV enthusiasts in organizing local clubs and or state associations; attend annual NOHVCC conference; report to NOHVCC regularly concerning events, legislation, trails, and other OHV-related matters
http://www.nohvcc.org/contacts/repdescrip.asp
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August 11th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Shall we take a look at the actual Consumer Product Safety Division statistics?
“Although the following data indicate a rise in the absolute number of ATV-related injuries
and deaths, the risk of death for ATV riders remains relatively constant due to increased usage”
http://www.atvsafety.gov/stats.html
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August 11th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
The safety issue is a red herring – people don’t want those noisy machines in residential areas. If you don’t like the ‘nimbys’, why can’t you ride in your own neighborhood? The atv people are now trying to portray themselves as ‘family’ people, “98%” of whom are polite, law abiding,etc. That doesn’t square with my experience – and where do they get that figure? If you want to see how atv and four wheelers and motocross bikers respect the environment, check out USA today, Aug. 11 story, ‘National Forests Battle Damage”. It’s a national problem, lowlife tearing up public land with their obnoxious machines…
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August 12th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Yes Chris, let’s do!
So, based on your link (It’s the same website that I posted the link from Chris!), ATV deaths overall are down, deaths for youths are down and injuries for youths are down.
With an increase of 700,000 atv’s but a decrease of injuries and deaths, I think some of the education and safety training that we are pushing for is making a difference.
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August 13th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Meanwhile, back in Oregon…
http://blog.oregonlive.com/oregonianatv/
http://blog.oregonlive.com/oregonianopinion/2007/05/overturned_atvs_dead_kids.html
“The series demolished the convenient fiction that ATV crashes are about nothing more than irresponsible riders and inattentive parents. The issue is not the maturity and judgment of a 12-year-old lying in the dirt with a crushed spine but the design, the safety training and the laws governing the 600-pound ATV overturned on his chest.
Yes, “Stupid hurts,” as one ATV manufacturer shrugs. But as the series demonstrated, what really maims and kills kids is a completely inadequate regulatory system that relies on stick-on warning labels, wink-and-nod ATV salesmen and voluntary rider training that hardly anyone actually completes.
How long is the Oregon Legislature, cowed by the loud resistance of ATV riders, going to let this go on? How long is Congress going to ignore it? How long is the Consumer Product Safety Commission going to pretend that a voluntary ATV safety regime is good enough?
Yes, ATVs are great fun. Yes, riding is a huge family activity and tradition in Oregon and across the country. Yes, the four-wheeled vehicles can be useful on farms and ranches. And yes, most ATV riders, and especially most families, ride safely.
But kids don’t belong on adult-size machines. Ever. The newspaper found that even safety-conscious young riders are one incline, one poorly executed turn, away from a deadly ATV rollover.”
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August 28th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Bob hits the chord.
Today I got the finger from a guy driving a POS truck with a wheeler in the back.
Why did I get the finger? Because I was doing 45 mph in the double fine zone and, apparently that was an intrusion on his rights to drive faster!
Now, I might not have commented here or even cared at all except, on his truck was the “beautiful brand” of the Rogh Riders.
Until today I had actually been taking their side in most situations. But that one individual changed my heart and mindset.
The reality is that we can’t judge the whole by the few, but, we have to realize that the few are going to cause a LOT of problems. They aren’t going to bring home their trash. They aren’t going to stay on the trails. They aren’t going to be satisfied with cooperating with the public…. because, for the few, 45 means 65. For the few a trail head means a place to leave trash… because for the few a track or trail is not adequate.
It is the few that cause the problems. This is not exclusive to this issue. But, unless the majority of good stewards are willing to control the few, it will be left to the public to control them all.
In a single moment I went from support to absolute opposition for a single finger, from a single law breaker, promoting himself via bumper sticker as a Rough Rider. In his mind, he, and his interest in getting wherever he was going was more important than the WE. He will be the guy leaving trash, he will be the guy cutting trees in public camp areas, he will be the guy leaving fire pits of half burned green wood, and, he will be the guy who the Rough Riders have as a “peer” because he has a machine.
Shut him and his friends down, and I’ll lend my support again. Keep turning a blind eye, and, you have an opponent.
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August 28th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
“For safety reasons, trails will be restricted to motorized use only.”
On my last trip up that road I noticed a new road heading down toward the creek. There is a No Trespassing sign, and, tour buses in the parking area.
What happened to “public” again?
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August 29th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
>ruger Says:
>
>August 28th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
>”For safety reasons, trails will be restricted to motorized use only.”
>
>On my last trip up that road I noticed a new road heading down toward the creek. There is a No Trespassing sign, >and, tour buses in the parking area.
>
>What happened to “public” again?
I am unsure what exactly you are asking with this post. Please clarify and I will attempt to answer your questions.
Let’s see if I can answer some of it…
As a non-profit corporation who supports safety and responsible riding, we have done extensive research on the subject of OHV safety and the best way to aleviate multi-user conflicts and accidents is to have a motorized only designation.
I have no idea what road you are talking about but the area we are looking at has no parking lot, yet. It DOES have No Trespassing signs and has for years, though people still walk their dogs, hike, cross country ski etc… there.
As far as the “POS Truck” you mentioned…
I’m not going to go into detail here. I got passed by a car with a kayak in the same work zone, damn kayakers!
Really, please let me know a description of the “POS Truck” and where & what color the Rough Riders Sticker was. The stickers are available to the public and though I don’t have names and addresses of everyone who bought one I would definately like to look into this.
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August 30th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
So far there is over 400 people who joined the pettion for the fish creek riding area im thinking that if the C.B.J did a land trade for the launch site at echo cove as they said in the docks and harbours meeting I was at then spent 200 k to improve it and its just one of I think 6 sites they mentioned how many users of atvs does it take to get the support the recreatonal boaters get ? and shouldn’t there be a percentage cap for bolth sports to get funding ? why does C.B.J. so readily recognize boating for sport and not riding an atv for sport ? wouldn’t cost alot to build a bridge over montana creek would it ? mabye just move the rock thats sitting there ?
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September 2nd, 2007 at 8:12 pm
It’s only fair to be fair. I will share every trail in Juneau with a rough riding atv’r under the condition that hit if you can hit one with a shotgun it’s self-defense.
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September 7th, 2007 at 5:31 am
Ruprecht Says:
September 6th, 2007 at 8:48 am
Boat owners pay their own way
freeloaders to usurp public property?
when did boat owners purchase the ocean? I thought this was still public property
if you had been following atv riders would like to pay their own way, but we are not getting the same assistance as (useing your referance) boat owners. I belive we need to level the playing field.
just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it bad, there is a lot of services that the city/state provides for recreation that I do not care for or use. But I’m not going to campaign agaist them, others in MY COMMUNITY use them and enjoy them. I remember when I was 15 or so and everyone hated skateboarders,(no legal place to ride) man we were the anti-christ according to the city. did they outlaw them, no they COMPROMISED and through recreation monies built a skate park for the COMMUNITY. It’s all about supply and demand, and theres a demand wether it’s your recreation or not. So please be a little open minded.
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September 10th, 2007 at 11:11 am
Here we go again!
Let’s start off by laying out what we have done so far…
We approached the CBJ, DNR, USFS as well as Goldbelt over a year ago. We saw what was happening out at Echo Cove and wanted to stop it.
We asked Goldbelt to “Allow” us to use their land. They said no. We offered to provide insurance coverage if they let our club ride. They Said no. We offered to pay a “Use Fee”, they said no. This is completely within their rights and though it was disapointing, we respect their decision.
We met with officials from CBJ, DNR and the USFS to find a solution to the issue.
Based on previous investigations into suitable OHV areas done by representatives from all agencies as well as the involved user groups, the Fish Creek Quarry was determined to be THE place for this project. This determination was made in 2000 and even the CBJ had made the reclamation plan for the quarry and clearcut to be an OHV park. This has been “Public” information for over 7 years! TrailMix submitted a grant application in 2001 which required public notification. The neighboring landowners were notified about this project as required. Rough Riders also posted a public notification last year in hopes that we could apply for the same grant. There was no opposition to speak of after ANY of these public notices on the proposed use of this area.
WE UNDERSTAND EVERYONES CONCERNS AND HAVE ADDRESSED THEM ALL IN OUR OPERATION & MANAGEMENT PLAN!!!
Regardless of where we find to do this, people like Ruprecht are going to oppose it. We are prepared for that. The problem is that someone is going to have to take the hit. No matter where we go, someone else uses that area for something. Even the Fish Creek Quarry, where NO ONE IS SUPPOSED TO GO, is being used, ILLEGALLY, by walkers, hikers and people who don’t want to have to clean up after their dogs. Someone is going to HAVE to share!
Boat owners didn’t pay for the boat launches or the docks. They DO pay a fee to use them, and the OHV community is more than willing to do the same. Give us Eaglecrest and it will MAKE money! I guarantee that if we had Eaglecrest, there would be no need for subsidy payments. I would pay the $399 a year as would most riders, and probably ALL of the snowmobile users as well! Cut everything but the lodge and let us go to town. With no need for much power it would be cheap to run.
Where does the money come from to pay to maintain the trails you walk on? Did some hiking user group purchase the land they are on? Who paid for the ice rink? The skatepark? The community garden? The gun ranges?
As far as the closure of Echo Cove is concerned…
Closing Echo Cove means that the only people who will ride out there are the people who got the area closed in the first place. The ones who do not follow the rules. I hope the city and Goldbelt have though about that. Also, who had the bright idea of announcing that there will be no enforcement until next year? Since nothing will change out there until next year they have given the go ahead to anyone who wants to ride out there, and probably a way out of trouble if confronted. I think I will carry a copy of the paper with the statement saying no enforcement and head out to Echo to ride.
And just to clarify…
Closing Echo Cove only closed the beach ACCESS. You can still “LEGALLY” ride in the parking lots and on the access roads. You can even ride on the beach, if you can get there without using CBJ or Goldbelt property. Can anyone say landing craft?
See you all next weekend for the “Parking Lot Races”! Think it won’t happen? Maybe we should go ride at Statter Harbor. It’s just as legal to ride in that parking lot as it is the parking lot at Echo Cove.
One last note for all NON-motorized users of Montana Creek Trail. I wouldn’t recommend walking here. With all OHV users being forced to ride on this one trail, someone is going to get hurt.
Anyone with geniune ideas for us, or if you know of a piece of property we can use, lease, rent or buy, please contact me.
James Tipps
Rough Riders AK, Inc. – President
james@roughridersak.org
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September 18th, 2007 at 7:24 am
Another internet tough guy… how sweet!
Actually Patrick, I think we are banned in hell too. Looks like Montana Creek it is!
And thanks Patrick. Your post proves that we are not the only user group with idiots making the rest of us look bad.
James Tipps
Rough Riders AK, Inc. – President
james@roughridersak.org
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September 18th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
James,
You bring up Eaglecrest. Now I don’t necessarily support ATV/snowmobile use there during the ski season, but what about the summer, when most of the ATVs are being operated? Have you approached the Eaglecrest Board about using some of the runs for your purposes? Seems like there are possibilities there. Ample parking, far from residences, good access, cleared land, gentle & steep slopes, city land… if you’ve explored this, why hasn’t it panned out? Who are the other area users in the summer, and can you co-exist? What would your members be willing to pay for access May through October?
And who knows? If your group turns out to be positive, responsible contributors to the area, perhaps it could evolve into some sort of all-season use. In my mind I still see Echo Cove with its collection of idiots (granted, many of the idiots are non-ATV idiots, but a good share of them DO operate ATVs there). The burden is on you guys to change public perceptions, fair or not.
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September 18th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
James,
I must appologize for my vulagarity. My anger got the better of me. What I meant to say was this: You acknowledge and even suggest that ATV use at Montana Creek could and will likely lead to ‘someone’ getting hurt, you as acting President of the Rough Riders find this acceptable? There are signs on the Douglas bridge telling cyclists they must yield to pedestrians. Do you urge your members to yield to pedestrians on Montana Creek Trail. If an atv’r runs over someone or someones dog who is liable? Will that motorist stop and render aid, or rough ride away? I suppose it depends on the individual. Regardless, creating a threat to the public is just another nail in your coffin and telling people who walk out there is just the dirt on top. Honestly, I think atv use for the sake of ripping up and down a mile of trail is pointless. But to each his own right. Those machines serve very reasonable and respectable purposes used as tools, or in place of automobiles. What about making those things street legal so you guys could ride all over town and still get the good vibrations…? You guys have every right to get your jollies however you like, but threatening the health and safety of pedestrians is not only unacceptable, it’s illegal. Don’t be surprised if the accidental running over of someones pet inspires an equal amount of violent rage and reciprication that running over someone’s youngster might, definately want to have a helmet for that.
Again, I apologize for dropping the F bomb, it was unnecessary and counterproductive. And actually Fairbanks has not out-lawed ATV’s. Neither has Utah or Nevada. There is lots of hot sweltering desert out there where folks like yourself might find your hobbies better appreciated and more fully facilitated.
Finally, the word idiot is latin, for one who does not vote. I may qualify as an internet tough guy but certainly not an idiot, thanks.
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September 19th, 2007 at 11:45 am
“You acknowledge and even suggest that ATV use at Montana Creek could and will likely lead to ‘someone’ getting hurt, you as acting President of the Rough Riders find this acceptable?”
I do not find this acceptable. Because of our (RRAK) concern about the safety issues at all areas we approached land managers for all locations. Specifically regarding Montana Creek, DNR responded to our request for proper signage for the safety of ALL user groups with the following:
“Unfortunately the State does not have a program or funds to post signs at Montana Creek- In fact it is not the State’s responsibility to post regulations…”
“There are signs on the Douglas Bridge telling cyclists they must yield to pedestrians.”
I agree! Why are there no warnings for OHV users?
“Do you urge your members to yield to pedestrians on Montana Creek Trail?”
Rough Riders AK, Inc. promotes Safety and Responsible riding. We inform and expect club members to act accordingly… So the answer is YES
“If an atv’r runs over someone or someone’s dog who is liable?”
Based on the fact that the Montana Creek Trail is on State Land, I would expect that the State would be liable. That question would be better answered by the land manager.
“Regardless, creating a threat to the public is just another nail in your coffin and telling people who walk out there is just the dirt on top.”
I agree with the first part of this comment. It is a bad situation, though it is one we have been forced into. Personally, I think that even though the problem is going to end up on State managed land, the CBJ and the USFS should be just as liable. By closing areas without working with other agencies to address the issue, they have funneled all OHV use to the one remaining riding area. Blame us all you want, but the truth of the matter is we ride where we are told we can. As far as the second half of the statement… My warning was not meant to be malicious; it was out of genuine concern for all involved. We do not want to see anyone get hurt.
“You guys have every right to get your jollies however you like, but threatening the health and safety of pedestrians is not only unacceptable, it’s illegal.”
Once again, we do not want anyone to get hurt but if this is the only place we are allowed you would think that some precautions would be made on the part of the land manager of the area to make the area safer.
“And actually Fairbanks has not outlawed ATV’s. Neither has Utah or Nevada. There is lots of hot sweltering desert out there where folks like yourself might find your hobbies better appreciated and more fully facilitated.”
Is my sarcasm really that bad that people can not see it in this quote?
“Actually Patrick, I think we are banned in hell too. Looks like Montana Creek it is!”
I shouldn’t even respond to this but I am tired of people telling us to move to enjoy our choice of recreational activity. OHV use has not been banned in Juneau either and until it is, I will continue to ride.
Patrick, you obviously have a personal issue, maybe it’s time to deal with that. You have made it clear you do not “Approve” of our chosen activity, fine. That is your right, but to be honest, your like or dislike of anything I do means little or nothing to me. You have offered NO SOLUTIONS whatsoever, or even ideas. Complain, complain complain… but let someone else fix it.
RRAK has pursued this issue, and put a lot of time and money into it. We do this because we care about the present and future of our sport, and we will continue to attempt to find an acceptable solution. This is an issue that is not going to go away.
James Tipps
Rough Riders AK, Inc. – President
james@roughridersak.org
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September 19th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Bob,
We have approached everyone we could think of to find an acceptable location. The problem with Eaglecrest has to do with an ordinance that restricts motorized use based on the land use designation of the land that Eaglecrest is on. This requires public approval as well as an Assembly action. We have talked about it with Assembly members and while this may be a possibility at some point in the future, currently, based on public sentiment it would most likely be a waste of time. Until we are able to change the public opinion about OHV users, this project is better left on the back burner. If anyone thought there was a lot of opposition to the Snowmobile Club’s proposal to use Eaglecrest, after the close of ski season, wait until we try to open it to OHV’s.
Thank you for your input Bob, we do appreciate it! We are willing to try just about anything!
James Tipps
Rough Riders AK, Inc. – President
james@roughridersak.org
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September 19th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
James, I think the snowmobile proposal is a lot different than what you might propose. The snowmobilers want to operate in the same general area as the back-country skiers, where the snow is. You guys could easily operate in the lower runs a considerable distance from the skiers and still have plent of viable terrain. And because you’d be on City property there would be a measure of control over misbehaving users.
I suspect that there’s a significant amount of sympathy for your situation in the community. Myself, I think you should have an area that poses minimal impact on others, and if you guys could help pay for the costs of operating Eaglecrest, so much the better. I do question the judgement of anyone buying an ATV in Juneau today given the lack of choices for operating it, but hey, it’s your money. Other people collect antique tractors and beanie baby dolls, or spend $5 for a pack of smokes. Whatever turns your crank…
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September 20th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
James,
Don’t want to beat a dead horse, but…
Street legal machines…? Solution one.
Lease a piece of land, your org. could own, sell memberships whatever… Solution two.
Sell your machine, buy your kids some new sports equipment… Solution three.
Community service projects/financial comittment to restore the land that area users, maybe some of your members maybe not helped to trash… Solution four.
Obey the Law… Solution five.
Work within the walls to get what the community wil give you… Solution six.
Last but not least, don’t be a JERK, on the internet, on the road, on the trail, period, so that the public will respect you guys, not resent you guys.
Those people at echo cove who spent the past years out there raising absolute hell and completly ruining it for ANYONE else out there has really crapped on the image of that user group. No one forced those morons to do damage, break the law, ride where they are not supposed to. And I’ve heard the comment, ‘ well it’s only fun when you’re ripping it up ‘ that’s just the problem, if you’re crapping in someone elses sanctuary and they step in it, they’re gonna be pissed. And rightly so.
You guys might really consider some community service oriented projects to improve your reputation and build trust in the community.
Finally, because I’m an “Internet Tough Guy” I own the right to occassionly say misguided and inappropriate things which i can later retract. You on the other hand, might seriously think about how you conduct your self in public. If i didn’t think you were such a hard core A hole, I would be way more sympathetic to your cause. When and if it ever comes to a vote, I’ll be thinking of the jack asses at echo cove spitting gravel at my truck and boat on the ramp, I’ll think of the nimrods who nearly ran over me and my dog on Montana creek trail, and finally I’ll rember your articulate posts.
Good Luck.
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September 21st, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Let’s talk to Patrick again…
“Don’t want to beat a dead horse, but”¦”
“¦but you will, of course.
“Street legal machines”¦? Solution one.”
No solution here. State of Alaska will NOT allow alteration of an ATV to become street legal.
“Lease a piece of land, your org. could own, sell memberships whatever”¦ Solution two. ”
Working on it! But really, will private land really stop all the complaining and opposition? I highly doubt it.
“Sell your machine; buy your kids some new sports equipment”¦ Solution three.”
How about you sell your kids sports equipment and buy an OHV? Once again, because you dislike what we do for fun does not mean that we should have to do it somewhere else. This is what we do, and will continue to do so, so no, this is not a solution.
“Community service projects/financial commitment to restore the land that area users, maybe some of your members maybe not helped to trash”¦ Solution four.”
We have done cleanups at both Echo Cove and Montana Creek. We have done these because we do care about the areas we ride. While we feel this is a positive step toward community acceptance, or at least tolerance, toward what we do, what solution does this offer? People who oppose what we do will continue to oppose what we do.
“Obey the Law”¦ Solution five.”
We do, when we know it. The biggest problem with user conflicts and illegal use is the fact that none of the agencies even know their own laws. John Stone’s quote in the Empire is a prime example of this:
“Port Director John Stone said the ordinance banning motor vehicles from areas other than the parking lot, access road and boat ramp has existed since 1971 when the city and borough joined. Stone said he recently discovered the ordinance. The prior lack of enforcement was not from neglect, he said.”
How can that not be neglect? If the CBJ didn’t know the ordinance, how are the users supposed to know?
“Work within the walls to get what the community will give you”¦ Solution six.”
RRAK has been ACTIVELY working on a solution for almost two years now. We have implemented the public process and are still waiting. The scary thing is that this has been the case before. The last OHV user group who attempted to advance the OHV opportunities did so back in 2000, and up to the date that we got involved there had been NO progress.
“Last but not least, don’t be a JERK, on the internet, on the road, on the trail, period, so that the public will respect you guys, not resent you guys.”
I have been more than civil and respectful, on the internet (unlike others, right Patrick?), on the road, on the trail, period. We inform our members of the right ways to utilize the multi-use system in place in the Juneau area.
“Those people at echo cove who spent the past years out there raising absolute hell and completely ruining it for ANYONE else out there has really crapped on the image of that user group. No one forced those morons to do damage, break the law, and ride where they are not supposed to. And I’ve heard the comment, “˜well it’s only fun when you’re ripping it up “˜that’s just the problem, if you’re crapping in someone else’s sanctuary and they step in it, they’re going to be pissed. And rightly so.”
As I stated before, we ride where we are told we can. If anyone would have called the different land managers, like I did over two years ago, to find out where it was “Legal” to ride you would have received the same answers. Echo Cove, Montana Creek or a “We don’t know”. People need to be realistic. Tell someone they can ride somewhere and provide no information on regulations, authorized vs. closed areas etc”¦ what do you expect to happen? As far as the Sanctuary goes, where is our sanctuary?
“Finally, because I’m an “Internet Tough Guy” I own the right to occasionally say misguided and inappropriate things which I can later retract. You on the other hand, might seriously think about how you conduct your self in public. If I didn’t think you were such a hard core a hole, I would be way more sympathetic to your cause. When and if it ever comes to a vote, I’ll be thinking of the jack asses at echo cove spitting gravel at my truck and boat on the ramp, I’ll think of the nimrods who nearly ran over me and my dog on Montana creek trail, and finally I’ll remember your articulate posts.”
Patrick, I am guessing that because I called you on your “misguided and inappropriate” postings, this is why I am “such a hard core a hole”? While I probably should have let your posts go unanswered, as they really didn’t warrant a response, I stand by my posts. Your first post alludes to being able to shoot us; your second was a foul mouthed, infantile response to an honest and concerned warning to the users of Montana Creek. This was done out of concern not spite and I responded to your F-Bomb quote explaining this as well. Be as mad or upset as you want about it but the fact of the matter is this”¦
We are allowed to ride at Montana Creek. Because of the closures of ALL other locations we are ONLY allowed to ride at Montana Creek, so expect to see us riding at Montana Creek. The closure of Echo Cove has funneled ALL riders onto the Montana Creek trail and thus caused a serious user conflict that we addressed with land managers long before the closure. To this day, even with all of the complaints and issues surrounding use at Montana Creek, there are still no signs that specify ANYTHING.
RRAK will continue to pursue an acceptable solution to this problem, and eventually there will resolution of some sort. What the final outcome will be I don’t know, and you may get your wish, but be assured, we will fight to be able to ride, and have packed a lunch.
Thanks for your ideas, and if you have any more please feel free to contact me directly.
James Tipps
Rough Riders AK, Inc. ““ President
james@roughridersak.org
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November 16th, 2007 at 8:59 am
Ok! Beautyful.
Moon Freddie.
Ok! Best regards!
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February 13th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
I say build it.When did Juneau or Douglas get so whinny?It’s an outdoor activity and I’m sure the city can make some money off this some how.I’m just tired of all the people crying about everything.”oh there’s to much smoke in the bars” “oh there’s to much noise coming from the boat in the lake” “oh have you seen echo cove?That’s what will happen here”.I mean come on, being Alaskan used to mean something.But now in Juneau it means you are a whinny democratic.
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February 21st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
People who don’t like noise move to Gustavus, let the kids grown up happy, i’d hate to be the kids of who’s parents are doing all the whinning.
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February 21st, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Build the park in North Douglas
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